Posted by markzoom on February 23, 2007, 7:38 pm
> On 23 Feb 2007 05:52:39 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> >> I thought a radiator needed to be inside and
> >> one outside.
> >No.
> >I can blow the warm air in from the outside.
> Will that really help, if the radiator springs
> a leak, won't the gas be blown in with the warm air?
Very true, but at least it will stay outside if you switch the unit
off.
I was thinking of using stainless hydraulic pipe. If using propane/
butane the volume needed would'nt be a major cost factor.
> But many different gases have been used
> in early units, some were quite toxic.
> Joe Fischer
Posted by Mike on February 21, 2007, 9:30 am
> The average air conditioning heat pump will output over 3 times the
> input power in heat (in the heater configuration).
> So how about having the wind turbine run a heat pump compressor
> directly (no electricity)?
> Without the additional heat fom the motor, that would be over twice
> the rating of the wind turbine. IOW a 500 watt turbine should output
> 1kw of heat (or cold). Up to you wether it's used for heating water or
> air.
> The mast could double as the "radiator"/heat exchanger absorbing
> ambient heat and you could have a fridge at the bottom of the turbine
> as a bonus (with electrical backup for low wind days, obviously).
> The question is:
> How do heat pumps perform at variable speeds? Any refrigeration/ air
> conditioning techs out there?
> If the variable speed is a problem, any thoughts about solutions?
Great idea, the compressor from a small car eg Honda City is quite small and
driven via a pulley belt drive via a magnetic clutch arrangement so could be
engaged when the wind speed was sufficient to allow the system to start
without stalling.
New generation heatpumps employ a variable speed drive on the motor, so the
compressor never actually stops but just slows down, makes them more
efficient.
Now you have got me thinking...
Cheers
Mike (NZ)
Posted by markzoom on February 21, 2007, 2:00 pm
> > The average air conditioning heat pump will output over 3 times the
> > input power in heat (in the heater configuration).
> > So how about having the wind turbine run a heat pump compressor
> > directly (no electricity)?
> > Without the additional heat fom the motor, that would be over twice
> > the rating of the wind turbine. IOW a 500 watt turbine should output
> > 1kw of heat (or cold). Up to you wether it's used for heating water or
> > air.
> > The mast could double as the "radiator"/heat exchanger absorbing
> > ambient heat and you could have a fridge at the bottom of the turbine
> > as a bonus (with electrical backup for low wind days, obviously).
> > The question is:
> > How do heat pumps perform at variable speeds? Any refrigeration/ air
> > conditioning techs out there?
> > If the variable speed is a problem, any thoughts about solutions?
> Great idea, the compressor from a small car eg Honda City is quite small and
> driven via a pulley belt drive via a magnetic clutch arrangement so could be
> engaged when the wind speed was sufficient to allow the system to start
> without stalling.
> New generation heatpumps employ a variable speed drive on the motor, so the
> compressor never actually stops but just slows down, makes them more
> efficient.
Sounds ideal then!
> Now you have got me thinking...
> Cheers
> Mike (NZ)
I've been doing some more thinking too...
I would be using it mainly for heating because here in the Azores I
need an extra 5C in the house in the winter, outside it never drops
below 10C at night (more like 14C+). The windiest days are usually the
coldest.
I could also use one to heat my water (after pre-heating with solar
water heater panels)
and keep it up to temperature overnight.
I think a vertical axis turbine/s would be the most convenient for
this application because:
A) They don't need the rotating refrigerant-pipe joints which a
horizontal axis one would need (unless they use a reciprocating rod
driving a compressor piston directly, which would be the neatest)
B) They are dead simple + cheap to make
C) It doesn't matter which direction the wind comes from
D) I can easily bolt an electric generator on too/instead, if I feel
like it.
Posted by Neon John on February 21, 2007, 4:21 pm
On 20 Feb 2007 16:49:13 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>Just a thought...
>The average air conditioning heat pump will output over 3 times the
>input power in heat (in the heater configuration).
>So how about having the wind turbine run a heat pump compressor
>directly (no electricity)?
>Without the additional heat fom the motor, that would be over twice
>the rating of the wind turbine. IOW a 500 watt turbine should output
>1kw of heat (or cold). Up to you wether it's used for heating water or
>air.
>The mast could double as the "radiator"/heat exchanger absorbing
>ambient heat and you could have a fridge at the bottom of the turbine
>as a bonus (with electrical backup for low wind days, obviously).
>The question is:
>How do heat pumps perform at variable speeds?
No, not unless designed for variable speeds and those are invariably
hermetically sealed brushless DC motor driven (or something equiv)
>Any refrigeration/ air conditioning techs out there?
>If the variable speed is a problem, any thoughts about solutions?
Yep. Make electricity. Drive an electric compressor. Think of the
electronics as a mystical magical transmission that can convert the
unsuitable variable speed, variable power output of a wind turbine
into power suitable to drive a refrigeration pump. Probably more
efficient than any sort of mechanical constant speed transmission
would be.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
Posted by markzoom on February 21, 2007, 8:13 pm
> On 20 Feb 2007 16:49:13 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> >Just a thought...
> >The average air conditioning heat pump will output over 3 times the
> >input power in heat (in the heater configuration).
> >So how about having the wind turbine run a heat pump compressor
> >directly (no electricity)?
> >Without the additional heat fom the motor, that would be over twice
> >the rating of the wind turbine. IOW a 500 watt turbine should output
> >1kw of heat (or cold). Up to you wether it's used for heating water or
> >air.
> >The mast could double as the "radiator"/heat exchanger absorbing
> >ambient heat and you could have a fridge at the bottom of the turbine
> >as a bonus (with electrical backup for low wind days, obviously).
> >The question is:
> >How do heat pumps perform at variable speeds?
> No, not unless designed for variable speeds and those are invariably
> hermetically sealed brushless DC motor driven (or something equiv)
> >Any refrigeration/ air conditioning techs out there?
> >If the variable speed is a problem, any thoughts about solutions?
> Yep. Make electricity. Drive an electric compressor. Think of the
> electronics as a mystical magical transmission that can convert the
> unsuitable variable speed, variable power output of a wind turbine
> into power suitable to drive a refrigeration pump. Probably more
> efficient than any sort of mechanical constant speed transmission
> would be.
Apparently variable speed is not a problem with automotive heat
pumps.
That means all the extra generating crap to go wrong is unnecessary,
and I'll get more than twice the heat than the wattage rating of the
turbine.
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
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> >> I thought a radiator needed to be inside and
> >> one outside.
> >No.
> >I can blow the warm air in from the outside.
> Will that really help, if the radiator springs
> a leak, won't the gas be blown in with the warm air?