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Posted by bobdrob on July 16, 2007, 12:28 pm
just out of curiosity, if you've got all these messy projects going on in
this nifty walk-in cooler/hobby room wouldn't you want some water & sewer
lines to maintain sanitation?  alzo- having an air tight soundproof room
with only 1 egress PLUS gallons of vino has all the makings of a straight to
DVD melodrama....  just thinking out loud...  regards,  bob

Posted by Sundug on July 16, 2007, 2:47 pm
TOPIC: Wine Cellar

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Jul 15 2007 10:34 am
From: "Dave In WA"

I want to build a 10x10x8 foot room for storing home made wine and if
flavors won't mix also cure ham, and make cheese.  I want to heat and
this room using ground source water. Here is my plan...

1. dig a trench (backhoe) at 10-12 feet deep and place looped plastic
(used for radiant heating in concrete) I'll assume 100-200 feet and
inch diameter (OD?).
2. fill with 50/50 glycol and distilled water, with expansion tank
(pressurized bladder, the kind used in radiant heat).  I might need to
anti bacterial chemicals to liquid.
3. add small (low voltage, wattage) pump to circulate the mixture from
ground to a closed radiator with small fan (low voltage, wattage)
4. room will be insulated with rigid foam, fiberglass bats, vapor
OSB panels with white fiberglass sheeting covering the walls
5. no air will enter/leave this room..the fan, radiator will be inside
room (plumbing through the wall), the pump and expansion tank will be
other side of wall, other room.
6. I would need a thermostat and controller to turn on the pump (start
when the inside temp is over 57 degrees and/or under 47 degrees..this
keep the room between 47 and 57 degrees (plus/minus "set back point"
7. OPTION: would using radiant baseboard (full perimeter) at floor
with 2nd
and 3rd loop of perimeter baseboard at 2 foot intervals (from floor)
eliminate the need for the fan and radiator? (and provide enough
transfer of
8. all stainless or brass fittings, no PVC.

Environmental conditions...
1. Western Washington gets some 20 degree days in the winter and it
has been
high 80 during summer..not too extreme, and not for extended period.
2. not looking to hold a very tight tolerance..i.e. if in December the
is 43 that is OK, and likewise in the summer at 60...( +/- 3 degrees
be acceptable)

How do I determine the length of pipe, trench length, volume of
(assumed in pipe length), pump volume and ability to pull or push
from 16 feet deep (12 hole and 6 feet from ground level), fan CFM and
of "radiator"?

What is my calculated BTU loss from this super insulated room?

I have taken the temperature of the ground water on my property, but
if it's
50 degrees down there..can I get to 47 degrees?

Any websites that would help???

Posted by Sundug on July 16, 2007, 2:50 pm
 The only way to get lower temps than are available naturally is to use
a heat pump. My guess is that you are considering using too little
piping underground. Why do you need antifreeze? If the lines do not
run above ground, they won`t freeze. PEX can withstand freezing. Doug

Posted by Jeff on July 16, 2007, 11:51 pm
 Dave In WA wrote:

  You have two kinds of head to overcome. Part is that caused by the
tubing itself. This will vary according to flow rate and you can find a
fair amout of information on the net, look for irrigation. The other
part is the head by pumping that 16', if this is a closed loop then most
of that will only be needed to initially flood the system. You can run
parallel tubing to reduce head loss if needed. I'm not sure how much
contact area you will need to keep from scavenging out all the
surrounding heat or cool, but it will depend on ground water and a host
of other concerns. You may be able to get some idea from ground source
heat pump calcs, but not from me!

   Calculate the temperature difference between inside and out for each
wall, floor or ceiling and then divide by the R value of that surface.
Multiply that by the square feet. So for a rough figure for the whole
slapdoodle with an R value of 40 and a temp difference of 20F   (520 ft2
* 20 /40 , 260 BTU/hr, some 6000 BTU's or so per day. That's a pretty
high R value...  We're solar believers here in alt.solar, but that is
only a bit more than a kWHr a day, or perhaps a dime or so a day to heat
with a small space heater on 23 degree days.

   Not sure how without adding more cooling.

   Give it a few days and Nick might be around with some calculations
and some ideas. My own thoughts are that condensation might be a big

   If you are pouring the slab, consider embeding that radiant heat
tubing in the concrete and doing away with the radiators.


Posted by frederick ploegman on July 18, 2007, 12:23 pm

Don't know much about the tech part, but maybe some common
sense alternatives.

1.  Heat rises, cold falls.  Heating exchangers go down low and
     cooling exchangers go up high (like in your frig)  Done this
     way there is no need for fans.  Convection does it.

2.  If your house is on a well and ground water is ~50F, you have
     an easy alternative which will eliminate most of your work and
     expense.  Route the well water thru your exchangers and then
     back out to the pressure tank.  Each time the pressure tank
     cycles, a new batch of cold water is drawn into the exchanger.
     No need for pumps, the well already has one.  No need for
     expansion or water hammer tanks, the pressure tank has one
     built in.  A bypass pipe and some shut off valves will let you
     route the water back directly to the tank so you can work on the
     system when you have to. (and shut it off if it springs a leak)

3.  You can improve your heat exchanger by using the kind of
     exchangers used in hot water base board heating systems.
     The kind with copper tubing and aluminum fins.

4.  You will need to vent such a room to get rid of the stink and
     accumulated gasses.  To do this as quickly as possible to
     minimize the amount of heat drawn in, you will need an exaust
     fan of some kind.  (and cycle the water as soon as the air is
     exchanged)  I would only do this when (before) I wanted to
     enter the room.

5.  If you don't already have a well, you may find it less expensive
     to have one put in rather than the system you are planning.
     Might be worth doing a cost study.  You can always route the
     output out to an irrigation system for your lawn/garden/whatever.
     Put the output on a timer to control the cycling of the system.
     (eg. the kind used for automatic sprinkler systems)

Anyway, just some thoughts.  HTH

PS - personally, I would never make ham, cheese, and wine, all in
the same area.......And vinegar gets made at someone_else's_
house !!    ;o)


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