Posted by *danny burstein* on December 19, 2011, 8:46 am

*>On 19/12/11 3:47 PM, Mho wrote:*

*>Not to put you on the spot, but 1000 * 4 * 365 * .11 divided by 100 (makes it *

*>dollars, not cents) comes to $606 dollars.*

Looks like you misplaced a decimal point:

1000 watts/1,000 => 1 kw; 4000/1,000 => 4 kw. Now times 4 hrs -> 4 kw-hr/day

4 kw times 0.10 dollars =>0.40 or 40 cents/day

40 cents times 365 => 14600 cents. Divide by 100 => $ 146.00

(if 11 cents per kw-hr [erlier poster mixed both terms],

you'd see $ 160.60)

[material underneath left for reference]

*>As I pointed out in a previous reply, I do things like this in my head, and got *

*>about $600.*

*>Now without any other of your arguments to check, you've already shot yourself *

*>in the foot.*

*>Need I say any more about your math or reasoning - I think not*

*>Graham*

*>> Real easy but you would have to actually read those studies and be able to*

*
basic*
*>> math.*

*>>*

*>> Let's say you buy a 1000 Watts of PV panels and get them for a good*

*
price...say*
*>> $ per watt and let's not consider the mounting and inverter, hookup, taxes,*

*>> permits and electrician costs to accomplish this. so we now have $,000 of*

*
panels.*
*>>*

*>> Most places the insolation factor is about 4 hours +/- some.*

*>>*

*>> With 365 days per year (we all get that)*

*>>*

*>> and grid energy at say $.10 / kWh (we pay 5.8 cents plus add-ons)*

*>>*

*>> We now have 1000 watts of PV x 4 hours x 365 days x $.11 = $60 of generating*

*>> capacity per anum.*

*>>*

*>> Now your LOI on your money will come to about $000 x 5% (or more) = $00 per*

*>> annum.*

*>>*

*>> DO some magic and pay of your $00 per annum in interest alone with your $60*

of

*>> generation income.*

*>>*

*>> When you're don't forget to add in the amortization of your additional*

*
factors,*
*>> the inefficiency of your electronics and maintenance costs. Don't forget how*

*>> much more your roof will cost to have the panels all removed and remounted*

*
next*
*>> shingle change.*

*>>*

*>> There is no payback unless somebody else pays your bills and hides the costs*

in

*>> everybody else's income tax.*

*>>*

*>> PV welfare anybody?*

*>>*

*>> Only somebody making profits from this can seriously promote PV without*

*
looking*
*>> foolish.*

*>>*

*>> Artificially high energy rates, subsidies and lower prices help balance the*

*
books.*
*>>*

*>>*

*>> ------------*

*>>*

*>> Actually, it really depends on how much you are paying for other sources*

*>> of electricity. As other sources get more expensive, PV gets more*

*>> attractive.*

*>>*

*>> I don't know how you can seriously claim that, given the amount of*

*>> studies that have been undertaken in the last 15 years....*

*>>*

*>> Energy payback time is generally under 3 years, but goes as low as under*

*>> 1 year if you are in a particularily high insolation place.*

*>>*

*>> Check out the IEA studies, PVPS, or Alsema or Fthenakis...*

*>>*

*>>*

*>>*

*>>*

--

_____________________________________________________

Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

dannyb@panix.com

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Posted by *Mho* on December 19, 2011, 5:53 pm

We all need to go to math school. Yes I stated the power in watts and the

rate in kiloWatthours.

Some assumption of math skills was asserted. The other basic math changes

were injected by the hecklers...LOL

There are three kinds of people in this world. Those that can do math and

those that can't!

----------

writes:

*>On 19/12/11 3:47 PM, Mho wrote:*

*>Not to put you on the spot, but 1000 * 4 * 365 * .11 divided by 100 (makes *

*>it*

*>dollars, not cents) comes to $606 dollars.*

Looks like you misplaced a decimal point:

1000 watts/1,000 => 1 kw; 4000/1,000 => 4 kw. Now times 4 hrs -> 4 kw-hr/day

4 kw times 0.10 dollars =>0.40 or 40 cents/day

40 cents times 365 => 14600 cents. Divide by 100 => $ 146.00

(if 11 cents per kw-hr [erlier poster mixed both terms],

you'd see $ 160.60)

[material underneath left for reference]

*>As I pointed out in a previous reply, I do things like this in my head, and *

*>got*

*>about $600.*

*>Now without any other of your arguments to check, you've already shot *

*>yourself*

*>in the foot.*

*>Need I say any more about your math or reasoning - I think not*

*>Graham*

*>> Real easy but you would have to actually read those studies and be able *

*>> to basic*

*>> math.*

*>>*

*>> Let's say you buy a 1000 Watts of PV panels and get them for a good *

*>> price...say*

*>> $ per watt and let's not consider the mounting and inverter, hookup, *

*>> taxes,*

*>> permits and electrician costs to accomplish this. so we now have $,000 *

*>> of panels.*

*>>*

*>> Most places the insolation factor is about 4 hours +/- some.*

*>>*

*>> With 365 days per year (we all get that)*

*>>*

*>> and grid energy at say $.10 / kWh (we pay 5.8 cents plus add-ons)*

*>>*

*>> We now have 1000 watts of PV x 4 hours x 365 days x $.11 = $60 of *

*>> generating*

*>> capacity per anum.*

*>>*

*>> Now your LOI on your money will come to about $000 x 5% (or more) = $00 *

*>> per*

*>> annum.*

*>>*

*>> DO some magic and pay of your $00 per annum in interest alone with your *

*>> $60 of*

*>> generation income.*

*>>*

*>> When you're don't forget to add in the amortization of your additional *

*>> factors,*

*>> the inefficiency of your electronics and maintenance costs. Don't forget *

*>> how*

*>> much more your roof will cost to have the panels all removed and *

*>> remounted next*

*>> shingle change.*

*>>*

*>> There is no payback unless somebody else pays your bills and hides the *

*>> costs in*

*>> everybody else's income tax.*

*>>*

*>> PV welfare anybody?*

*>>*

*>> Only somebody making profits from this can seriously promote PV without *

*>> looking*

*>> foolish.*

*>>*

*>> Artificially high energy rates, subsidies and lower prices help balance *

*>> the books.*

*>>*

*>>*

*>> ------------*

*>>*

*>> Actually, it really depends on how much you are paying for other sources*

*>> of electricity. As other sources get more expensive, PV gets more*

*>> attractive.*

*>>*

*>> I don't know how you can seriously claim that, given the amount of*

*>> studies that have been undertaken in the last 15 years....*

*>>*

*>> Energy payback time is generally under 3 years, but goes as low as under*

*>> 1 year if you are in a particularily high insolation place.*

*>>*

*>> Check out the IEA studies, PVPS, or Alsema or Fthenakis...*

*>>*

*>>*

*>>*

*>>*

--

_____________________________________________________

Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

dannyb@panix.com

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Posted by *argusy* on December 20, 2011, 11:10 am

On 20/12/11 4:23 AM, Mho wrote:

*> We all need to go to math school. Yes I stated the power in watts and the rate*

*> in kiloWatthours.*

*> Some assumption of math skills was asserted. The other basic math changes were*

*> injected by the hecklers...LOL*

*> There are three kinds of people in this world. Those that can do math and those*

*> that can't!*

<snip>

I like your mathematics!!.

Obviously, I'm in the "those who can't" class.

Like in an earlier post -

Der, graham

.11 is ALREADY in dollars - I just couldn't see it for a while.

so I multiplied by a thousand, then divided by a hundred.

That's a factor of 10. No wonder I got $606.

I humbly apologise for calling myself "a moron".

Oh, well, it's about time I started using a calculator, anyway.

Just as a matter of interest, I'm now on my third inverter.

The first one died about three weeks after the installation.

The second one died about four weeks ago.

The third is still working, but the brand has me worried.

(Sunnyroo 3000TL - made in China, rebadged as "assembled in Australia")

At least they were under warranty.

Graham

Posted by *Mho* on December 21, 2011, 3:57 am

Ouch! No malice. Crapola happens all the time on Usenet. Pay attention to it

and no tech talk happens.

I have been working on the same junkyard unit since the beginning of my PV

career and hoping it doesn't die at anytime. I do not know what I will do if

it does! I provides a MPPT battery charger, co-gen and secure power supply

for some circuits in my house. I am not sure what I will do if it goes bad.

The unit was a known fire hazard at 5kW and they derated it in software to

3kW but still with a 10kW peak capacity for 1 minute (really good rating)

just before they went bankrupt or sold out to another company that won't

support it anymore due to new model sales. The interrogation software has

features which are not documented. The battery charger do not appear to

support many of the modes available in the software..etc.. Luckily a nice

tech there shipped me a new EPROM which didn't need to be reset each

morning. I need to get into the thing to clean relay contacts sometime but

after retiring from that crap (35 years) just can't bring myself to do it.

If I ever replace the computer their algorithm is available. maybe, if I beg

really well, on the phone to crack the migrated software installation. The

nice tech left the company.

On the math front I used to be so good at basic arithmetic and now it screws

me up big time. As my own home builder more mistakes have been made due to

my arrogance knowing what arithmetic results are in my head. I am out of

practice, big time. More lumber has been ruined by that arrogance. Damn

father used to drill me when I was 4-5 years old!...LOL Now I use a

calculator, a lot!

--------------

Obviously, I'm in the "those who can't" class.

Like in an earlier post -

Der, graham

.11 is ALREADY in dollars - I just couldn't see it for a while.

so I multiplied by a thousand, then divided by a hundred.

That's a factor of 10. No wonder I got $606.

I humbly apologise for calling myself "a moron".

Oh, well, it's about time I started using a calculator, anyway.

Just as a matter of interest, I'm now on my third inverter.

The first one died about three weeks after the installation.

The second one died about four weeks ago.

The third is still working, but the brand has me worried.

(Sunnyroo 3000TL - made in China, rebadged as "assembled in Australia")

At least they were under warranty.

Graham

Posted by *argusy* on December 21, 2011, 10:32 am

<snip>

*> On the math front I used to be so good at basic arithmetic and now it screws me*

*> up big time. As my own home builder more mistakes have been made due to my*

*> arrogance knowing what arithmetic results are in my head. I am out of practice,*

*> big time. More lumber has been ruined by that arrogance. Damn father used to*

*> drill me when I was 4-5 years old!...LOL Now I use a calculator, a lot!*

not as bad as having your mother teaching at the same school.

I could never get away with saying "Nah, Mum, no homework tonight", knowing damn

well she'd already asked my teacher what I've got.

She'd drill me, too, on maths, English and whatever else she found out what my

teacher had taught on the day.

I was always top of the class with 90% plus, and it STILL wasn't enough!!

I joined the RAAF (apprentice) when I was 15. <grin>

>On 19/12/11 3:47 PM, Mho wrote:>Not to put you on the spot, but 1000 * 4 * 365 * .11 divided by 100 (makes it>dollars, not cents) comes to $606 dollars.